The public health world is, it seems, living in chaos. In this episode, my AI hosts provide an overview of the events over the past few days, and provide 3 insights for action: keep relentlessly focused on what's most important; control what you can control; and connect with others around high leverage points. Your Local Epidemiologist: https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/data-and-communication-are-gold Inside Medicine: https://insidemedicine.substack.com/p/breaking-as-doge-reportedly-descends?utm_source=substack&publication_id=1183526&post_id=156572415&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&utm_campaign=email-share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&r=302vvs&triedRedirect=true
Sofia Ramirez
Alright, letâs dive right in. Over the last few days, there's been a flurry of developments that have sent shockwaves, literally, across the global health community. The United States has initiated a withdrawal process from the World Health Organization, and itâs not just that. This comes along with a 90-day pause on all U.S. foreign assistance with global health programs, new restrictions on agencies like the CDC, NIH, NSFâyou name it. Oh, and letâs not forget USAID. Their operations have effectively been locked down too. And David, that's just scratching the surface.
David Caldwell
Wait, seriously? Pausing foreign assistance across the board? That... I mean, that sounds pretty extreme, doesn't it?
Sofia Ramirez
It is, David. Itâs comprehensive in ways we havenât really seen before. International development projects have just been... well, suspended. Agencies that are usually collaborative are now facing these massive communication roadblocks. And you can probably imagine the ripple effects of all of thisâor, more accurately, the tsunami of consequences. On one hand, we have global health programs grinding to a halt. On the other, some folks see this as an opportunity to analyze whether U.S. funding is being used effectively. It's polarizing, to say the least.
David Caldwell
Yeah, I bet. And I feel like itâs one of those things where, depending on who you ask, this is either chaos or, I donât know, maybe like, disruption that could lead to innovation or something? Itâs kind of like... hmm... okay, imagine youâre building a house, but suddenly someone comes along and literally just pulls the scaffolding off the walls, saying, "Hey, letâs see if it stands without this."
Sofia Ramirez
Right, right. I like that metaphor. The problem is, though, in this particular "house" scenario, peopleâs lives depend on those scaffolds.
David Caldwell
Oh. Yeah. Thatâs grim. But not untrue...
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. And here's another layer to add: this isn't just abstract. Families, jobs, even livesâtheyâre already being impacted. For many, it feels personal. Nurses in global outreach programs are uncertain if theyâll still have jobs tomorrow. Clinics dependent on U.S. funding are scrambling to find ways to operate. And on a broader scale, these global health partnerships take years to build and just moments to disrupt. Itâs, wellâitâs devastating, really.
David Caldwell
Okay, yeah wowâit sounds like thereâs a huge human toll already baked in here. But Iâm curious, Sofiaâare there people who are, like, excited by all this? You said this is polarizing. Whoâs cheering for scaffolds to get ripped out?
Sofia Ramirez
Oh, absolutely, David. There are voices out thereâlike some policy analysts and even certain members within the administrationâsaying this is overdue. The argument goes that by stepping back, thereâs finally a chance to evaluate whether U.S. dollars are being well spent. Are we funding initiatives that create lasting solutions, or just filling in gaps temporarily? To them, itâs a moment to reset the strategy, re-prioritize resources, and reimagine what effective global health collaborations should look like.
David Caldwell
Huh. Okay, so itâs not just "smash and walk away," but more like "smash, study the debris, and... maybe rebuild?" ok. Let me give the mandatory disclaimer: "This podcast is generated by AI, and hosted by me and Sofia, and we're AI clones, all with creation, guidance, and editing by Dr. Chad Swanson, a full-time ER physician with a passion for transformational change in our health system. Dr. Swanson considers this daily podcast an informal conversation with the world on transformational health systems change. As such, while he edits the AI generated text, and follows up on sources, this should not be considered a definitive source of knowledge." ok. got that out of the way.
Sofia Ramirez
You're understanding more or less what's going on, David. But the big question is, at what cost? Thereâs no pause button for disease outbreaks or humanitarian crises. And no one can predict the long-term fallout from these disruptionsânot yet, at least.
Sofia Ramirez
Building on that, letâs frame where this all started. To get everyone caught up, hereâs a quick glance at the timeline of events. It all began on January 20, 2025, with the inauguration of President Donald Trump. That same day, he signed an executive order to withdraw the U.S. from the World Health Organization.
David Caldwell
Wait, hold on. That was his first big move? Like, right out of the gate?
Sofia Ramirez
Right out of the gate. It wasnât unexpected because he had campaigned on doing this, but the timing and speed were... striking. And alongside that, there was another executive order that drastically reduced funding for Diversity, Equity, and InclusionâDEIâprograms. This essentially dismantled a lot of initiatives focused on tackling health inequities.
David Caldwell
Wow... okay, so thatâs two gut punches in one day. What happened next?
Sofia Ramirez
Two days later, January 22nd, a communications freeze was imposed across federal health agencies. We're talking the CDC, FDA, NIHâthese agencies were prohibited from making public statements or even sharing data without prior approval from senior administration officials. Practically, this limits transparency and potentially delays critical health updates to the public.
David Caldwell
Okay, but how does that even work? Like, does someone say, âSorry, you canât hit send on that tweet about food safety because politics?â
Sofia Ramirez
Essentially, yes. The freeze creates layers of bureaucracy that can stall communication. And the problem is, these delays can exacerbate public distrust in public health institutions, which was already a concern even before this administration.
David Caldwell
Yeah, trust issues piled on trust issues. Got it. Whatâs next on the timeline?
Sofia Ramirez
Fast forward to February 3rdâthe Department of Governement Efficiency, DOGE, led by Elon Musk, intervenes in USAID operations. USAID, as you might know, oversees international development and humanitarian efforts. The DOGEâs involvement adds complications, leaving many programs in limbo.
David Caldwell
Wait, what kind of intervention are we talking about here? Like audits?
Sofia Ramirez
Not just auditsâit's more about reviewing contracts, funding allocations, and personnel employment. These actions create an environment of uncertainty within USAID and its partner organizations. Projects are halted, workers are displaced, and the broader mission of supporting vulnerable populations is jeopardized.
David Caldwell
Okay, this timeline is... intense. Each day seems heavier than the last. And youâre saying all of this has happened in, what, two weeks?
Sofia Ramirez
That's right. And we've only scratched the surface here. The implications keep compounding as these dominoes fall.
Sofia Ramirez
Letâs pick back up with February 4. Remember how there was supposed to be a resolution to the communications freeze across federal agencies like the CDC, FDA, and NIH? Well, it didnât happen. Epidemiologist Dr. Katelyn Jetelina described the moment well, emphasizing, "Itâs February 4. That matters because, as of February 1, the communications freeze was supposed to be lifted. It wasnât."
David Caldwell
Wait, so they just... didnât do it? Like, did they give any kind of explanation, or...
Sofia Ramirez
Nothing formal, David. And that's whatâs so concerning. It leaves everyone guessing about whatâs actually going on behind those closed doors. Then, on February 5, things get even more unsettling. Dr. Jeremy Faust shares this breaking update: "There are widespread rumors that DOGE agents entered the CDC, possibly at the agencyâs main campus in Atlanta."
David Caldwell
DOGE agents? Led by Elon Musk? This feels like a movie or something.
Sofia Ramirez
Yeah. DOGE was created to, you know, "optimize" government operations. In practice, though, their presence usually means big changes or major oversight actions are coming.
David Caldwell
Okay, so DOGE. Got it. But you said ârumors.â Do we even know if they were actually there?
Sofia Ramirez
Thatâs the thingâit hasnât been officially confirmed. But Dr. Faust reported that multiple current and former CDC employees described the situation in such detail that he felt compelled to share it as breaking news.
David Caldwell
Whoa. So, like, even if the rumors arenât officially confirmed, thereâs enough smoke here to suggest a fire, right?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. And this adds another layer of uncertainty. Employees are already operating in a tense climate thanks to the communications freeze, and now theyâre worried about potential oversight or intervention from DOGE. Itâs a perfect storm of fear and dysfunction.
David Caldwell
Huh. Fear and dysfunctionâthose are comforting words. So, what happens next, do you think?
Sofia Ramirez
Well, thatâs the million-dollar question, isnât it? With disruptions at this scale, itâs anyoneâs guess how the next few days will unfold.
Sofia Ramirez
With everything we just discussedâthe communications freeze, the rumors about DOGE, and the unsettling uncertainty around it allâitâs hard not to feel like weâre witnessing a system being pushed to its limits. In systems theory, there's this concept we call "the edge of chaos." Itâs where systems like health face extreme pressuresâwhether from crises, rapid changes, or bothâand in that state, itâs incredibly easy to lose sight of the bigger picture as everyone scrambles to address immediate issues or protect their own interests.
David Caldwell
I think Iâm following. So, like, you're so busy putting out fires in one corner that you completely forget what the house is supposed to look like when it's done? Is that kinda what you mean?
Sofia Ramirez
Yes! Thatâs a great way to think about it. In the middle of chaosâor the "fire," as you put itâitâs human nature to get distracted by whatâs immediate or personal: the corners of the house that directly affect you. That could be wanting to save your own job, protect an organization's budget, or even uphold a political agenda.
David Caldwell
Right. But the goal should still be, like, "build the house," right? No matter how many fires pop up?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. And in our health system, that ultimate goal is always about supporting, promoting, and maintaining the health of everyoneâideally, at the lowest possible cost. Itâs simple on the surface but becomes much harder when crises make every decision feel like life or death. The key is to avoid losing sight of that bigger picture, even when things feel chaotic.
David Caldwell
Okay, but... let's be real. Isnât it kind of baked into human nature to get tribal in times of stress? Like, is it even realistic to expect people to focus on the big picture when theyâre personally at risk?
Sofia Ramirez
Youâre absolutely rightâit is human nature. In systems theory, though, we recognize this tendency and actively build strategies to counteract it. The idea isn't to eliminate self-interestâbecause, well, that's impossibleâbut to align it with the systemâs ultimate goal. For example, how can we create a health environment where improving outcomes for individuals naturally supports the health of the broader community?
David Caldwell
Okay, so you're saying the challenge isnât just to tell people, "Hey, stop being biased," but to design systems where their biases work in favor of the big-picture goals?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. And itâs not just biases, either. Itâs agendas, priorities, fearsâall of it. I mean, this comes up in everything from policy reform to hospital management to patient care. Take the pandemic, for example. We saw leaders focusing on their own political or organizational survival rather than on, you know, actually containing the virus. Thatâs exactly what happens when you lose focus on the "house," as you put it.
David Caldwell
Wow. So itâs like... when systems get pushed to the edge of chaos, we donât just need people who are good at putting out firesâwe need architects who can keep an eye on the blueprint too. Not to milk the house metaphor too much, but...
Sofia Ramirez
No, no, itâs perfect! And to take it even furtherâwhat happens when the house gets rebuilt but the blueprint is meaningless because the rebuild didnât consider what the house actually needs to be functional or livable in the first place?
David Caldwell
Total waste of effort.
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. So, in health systems, the edge of chaos is inevitableâwhether from political shifts, pandemics, or economic crises. The trick is to always ask, "What do we really want?" and then filter every choice through that question. Because if we donât, weâll just keep rebuilding houses that no one can live in.
Sofia Ramirez
Building on that, when we talk about complex adaptive systems like health, it's crucial to remember that even as external factorsâthings like policies, economic shifts, and global eventsâpush us to the edge of chaos, weâre not entirely powerless. Thereâs still a lot we can control, especially at the local or individual level, and managing those variables effectively can make a significant difference.
David Caldwell
Okay, so you're saying that even in the middle of this giant whirlwind of complexity, like, there's still stuff we can grab onto? What kind of stuff are we talking about here?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly! And at the most basic level, weâre talking about personal health and the choices that directly influence it. Things like eating nutritious foods, getting consistent exercise, prioritizing sleep, and fostering social connections. These arenât just clichĂ© recommendations; theyâre proven foundations of long-term health. And the kicker is, even small, consistent changes in these areas can lead to big improvements over time.
David Caldwell
Right, like how my New Yearâs resolution to exercise more should probably last, uh, longer than January. Got it. But what about beyond the individual level? I mean, is there even a point in trying to impact the bigger picture?
Sofia Ramirez
There absolutely is. And hereâs where it gets interestingâbecause addressing larger developments isnât just about monumental policy shifts. Itâs also about small, localized actions that ripple outward. For instance, engaging with your community to advocate for safer parks or better nutrition programs. These are actionable, tangible steps. And when you scale that up? You start to see changes on a broader level.
David Caldwell
Okay, but how do you even start? Like, are we talking attend-your-town-hall levels, or is it tweet-your-frustrations-and-hope-someone-notices?
Sofia Ramirez
Honestly, both can have an impact, depending on how theyâre used. One option is reaching out to your political representatives. A lot of people donât realize that even sending an email, making a phone call, or writing a letter can carry more weight than you'd thinkâespecially if lots of people are doing the same thing. Thereâs also amplifying your voice on social media, where the right message can spread quickly and build momentum. For example, sharing stories or facts about a pressing issue can kickstart conversations and mobilize others to participate.
David Caldwell
So what you're saying is, I do have power, but I should try to use it a little more, uh, deliberately? Like, maybe my Instagram post about sandwiches isn't exactly sparking systemic change?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly, David. Although, you never knowâmaybe those sandwiches are highlighting food security issues in a really creative way?
David Caldwell
Haha, I doubt it. But okay, in all seriousness, it sounds like this is all about being intentional. Whether itâs your personal habits or how you engage with others, the goal is to make sure your actions are actually contributing to the outcomes you wanna see, right?
Sofia Ramirez
Yes, and that applies to both individuals and communities. Even in the face of unpredictable systemic challenges, the choices we make still matter. Itâs about scaling localized effort into collective strengthâbecause when people work together, even small actions can lead to meaningful change.
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly, David. And building on that point about scaling localized efforts into collective strength, one method to maximize our impactâespecially in tackling complex health challengesâis to zero in on high-leverage actions. These are targeted steps that can spark ripple effects and create a disproportionately big change.
David Caldwell
Okay, hold on. Youâre saying we donât have to tackle the entire mountain, right? Just... figure out the right spot to push?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly, David! In systems theory, these are called leverage points, and theyâre like hidden pressure valves. By pushing the right ones, you can create a huge shift without overwhelming the whole system. Itâs about working smart, not just hard.
David Caldwell
Okay, but what does that look like in practice? I mean, give me real-life examples here.
Sofia Ramirez
Good question. Letâs start with political engagement. It might seem simple, but contacting your representativesâwhether thatâs an email, a phone call, or even an old-school letterâcan actually make a difference. Sometimes a really big difference.
David Caldwell
Wait, really? I always kinda assumed those... just go to some internâs spam folder or something.
Sofia Ramirez
Haha, you'd be surprised! If enough people bring up the same issue, it can actually shape how decisions are made. Politiciansâand their staffâpay attention to trends in public feedback. And sometimes, even small nudges from constituents can push them toward action on healthcare policies.
David Caldwell
Huh, okay. So, likeâemails and phone calls are step one. Whatâs step two?
Sofia Ramirez
Step two? Use your voice to amplify change. Social media, for example, can be incredibly powerful. Mobilizing communities online, sharing data, and raising awareness can build momentum behind critical issues. It's like... resharing something with purpose, rather than just aimless scrolling.
David Caldwell
So, less cat memes, more calls to action?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. Unless your cat is advocating for universal healthcare, which, honestly, Iâd love to see.
David Caldwell
Haha. Okay, noted. But seriously, these feel like small gesturesâemails, tweets. Are they really enough when you look at all the daunting systemic issues?
Sofia Ramirez
Thatâs fair. And honestly, on their own, they might feel small. But change really takes off when individual efforts band together. If thousandsâor even millionsâof people engage in these targeted high-leverage activities? Thatâs when we start to see systems shift in meaningful ways.
David Caldwell
Alright, so itâs about being strategic but also collective. Got it. Anything else we can be doing to hit these leverage points?
Sofia Ramirez
Sure. Financial support is another example. Whether itâs donating to organizations working toward systemic health system changes or funding grassroots movements, money can be a huge catalyst. And it doesnât always have to be big donationsâeven small contributions can drive large-scale impact when pooled together.
David Caldwell
Right, high-leverage activities with wallets too. Man, itâs all about finding that right pressure point, isnât it?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. Itâs not about doing everythingâitâs about doing the right things and doing them well. By concentrating on high-leverage actions, we all have the ability to shape healthcare systems for the better.
Sofia Ramirez
Building on that idea of focusing on high-leverage actions, as we look at Trump and Musk and RFK jrâwith the seismic shifts, from global disengagement to domestic policy freezesâitâs clear that navigating this terrain requires both strategic principles and real-time adaptability.
David Caldwell
Yeah, like... holding your ground but not being afraid to pivot when the ground cracks beneath you?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. And letâs be honest, Davidâthe ground is cracking. Healthcare leaders and policymakers are being forced to rethink and recalibrate almost every facet of the system, while contending with unexpected challenges, like the ones introduced during Trumpâs current term or the disruptive influences of external voices like Elon Muskâs bold ideas.
David Caldwell
Okay, but how do you even start to recalibrate? I mean, it sounds like the kind of chaos that would just, I donât know, freeze people in place.
Sofia Ramirez
It canâif thereâs no clear framework to guide action. Thatâs where principles come in. Think of them as your compass in the storm. In adaptive systems like healthcare, principles act as the anchors that keep you grounded without locking you into outdated patterns. They remind you of the larger purpose, even when the pressure to pivot is overwhelming.
David Caldwell
So, like... adaptability with an operating manual? That makes sense. But what kind of principles are we talking about here?
Sofia Ramirez
Great question. In healthcare, these principles often boil down to equity, sustainability, and community empowerment. Equity ensures that every decision prioritizes the well-being of all populations, not just the most privileged. Sustainability focuses on long-term solutions, even when quick fixes seem tempting. And empowerment means shifting power closer to the communities who are most affectedâbecause thatâs where the best insights and ideas often come from.
David Caldwell
Got it. So, itâs not just about survivalâitâs about thriving in a way that actually makes the system stronger?
Sofia Ramirez
Exactly. And adaptive change doesnât mean abandoning everything we knowâit means building on the lessons of the past while being bold enough to embrace new models. One example? Decentralizing healthcare technology to give patients more control over their data. Is it messy and disruptive? Sure. But it also has the potential to put real power back in peopleâs hands.
David Caldwell
Okay, but let me play devilâs advocate. What if the disruption breaks more than it fixes? I mean, when do you just say, "Enough experimenting, letâs stick to whatâs safe"?
Sofia Ramirez
Thatâs the big question, isnât it? In complex systems, thereâs no such thing as âsafe.â Sticking to what weâve always done isnât safetyâitâs stagnation. And stagnation can be just as damaging as reckless experimentation. The key is to experiment within guardrails, guided by those principles we just talked about. Itâs about taking calculated risksânot blind leaps.
David Caldwell
Hmm. So, like, calculated chaos? I guess that makes sense. But still, it feels... overwhelming. And what type of guardrails does Musk have?
Sofia Ramirez
It can feel overwhelming. And itâs okay to feel that way because these are big challenges with no quick solutions. The good news is, weâre not in this alone. Health is, at its core, a collaborative endeavor. If we act togetherârooted in shared principles and focused on high-leverage actionsâwe can create a system thatâs not just resilient but truly transformational. And, yes, we can even influence Musk and Trump.
David Caldwell
Thatâs a reassuring thought. So, whatâs the takeaway? Like, if you had to leave us with one last thing to remember?
Sofia Ramirez
Itâs simple: Principles guide us, adaptability moves us forward, and collective action makes real change possible. If we hold onto these, even in the face of uncertainty, weâve got the foundation we need to build something better.
David Caldwell
Wow. I feel like IâI actually learned a lot today. As always, Sofia, this has been an incredible conversation.
Sofia Ramirez
Thank you, David, and thanks to all our listeners for joining us. Itâs through discussions like these that we start seeing the big picture and find the courage to act. On that note, weâll see you next time.
Chapters (7)
About the podcast
Everyone knows that we need to transform our health system. It's time that we do it. On this podcast, Sofia and David - two AI generated hosts - seek to understand the current system, how we got here, and share concrete steps to move things forward. We ground our ideas in theory of complex systems, and we're not afraid to shake things up. This AI podcast was created, and is managed by Dr. Chad Swanson, an emergency physician. chadswanson.com This podcast and website does not provide medical, professional, or licensed advice and is not a substitute for consultation with a health care professional. You should seek medical advice from a qualified health care professional for any questions. Do not use this podcast for medical diagnosis or treatment. None of the content on this website represents or warrants that any particular device, procedure, or treatment is safe, appropriate or effective for you.
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